Groups vs systems

Sep. 20th, 2017 10:13 am
dpolicar: (Default)
[personal profile] dpolicar
I am so very tired of the narrative of "We shouldn't condemn a whole group because of some bad individuals. There are good people and bad people in that group."

Here's the thing: there's a difference between a group of people and a system of people. The difference is that a system of people comprises not only the individuals, but also the social constructs that guide the behavior of those individuals... in other words, the system itself.

For example, a company isn't just a bunch of people who coincidentally happen to work on the same projects in distributed ways. A school system isn't a bunch of teachers and administrators who independently happen to work the same way. A police precinct isn't a bunch of officers who just happen to follow the same rules.

In each of these cases there are policies and guidelines and hierarchies and informal structures and so forth that shape behavior. There's a system.

And when we praise or condemn the public school system, or the police, or Microsoft, or etc. we mostly aren't praising or condemning a whole group because of some good or bad individuals. I mean, sure, those individuals exist, but they aren't the reason. We are praising/condemning a whole group because of the system that organizes it. And the larger the system we're talking about, the more true that is: when we say that democracies are more just than totalitarian states, or that capitalism is more efficient than communism, or that communism is more humane than capitalism, or various other claims along those lines, we're basically not saying anything at all about any individual.

Or at least, that's how it should be. I mean, sure, sometimes we praise or condemn a group of people just because we're applying aggregate-level stereotypes to all the individuals in that group. And in those cases the "We shouldn't condemn a whole group because of some bad individuals. There are good people and bad people in that group." narrative makes sense: we really shouldn't! Or at least, we're overwhelmingly likely to be mistaken when we do; we can draw our own ethical conclusions from there.

(I am reminded now of a friendship I broke some time back by expressing both the idea that condemning individuals because of their group affiliations is bad, and the idea that analyzing the common behaviors of individuals is the only way we can identify pathological systems, in ways that struck them as infuriatingly and relationship-endingly hypocritical.)

And sure, sometimes we make analysis errors in this space. Sometimes there's a system operating we're unaware of. Sometimes we infer the presence of systems that don't actually operate, or aren't relevant to what we're talking about. It's easy to talk about the behavior of people while ignoring the systems that shape us, and it's easy to handwave about notional systems without actually making any concrete or testable claims about whether they exist.

I'm not saying I expect us to be perfectly accurate when we describe groups and systems. But I want us to be better about acknowledging that they are two different things.

When someone condemns racism as a systemic attribute of a society, for example, there are folks who reply that no, racism is a property of individuals, end-of-story.

And in principle that can be a legitimate disagreement; if someone wants to argue that there really aren't any social systems underlying/guiding/constraining/coordinating the racist behavior of individuals, for example, that's a totally relevant argument. (Mind you, I think it's obviously false, but that's another matter.)

But usually they aren't arguing that; rather, they are simply insisting that we can only talk about individuals, because when we say that racism is also demonstrated through the systems that essentially all white people in this country participate in, we're talking about a whole group, and (all together now) "we shouldn't condemn a whole group because of some bad individuals. There are good people and bad people in that group."

And I don't know how to say all of this, or any of it, in ways that are at all useful within the conversation itself. And I watch other people trying to do it, and not getting very far either.

And I understand that often that's because other people just don't want to hear it, and in general I don't believe that there's a way to say everything that will be accepted by the person I'm talking to and that it's my job to find it. But still, I try to express myself clearly and compellingly.

So, anyway. I am so very tired of the narrative of "We shouldn't condemn a whole group because of some bad individuals. There are good people and bad people in that group."

(no subject)

Sep. 19th, 2017 04:14 pm
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[personal profile] bitterlawngnome


Budapest / Bullet Holes; 6774
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(no subject)

Sep. 19th, 2017 11:41 am
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from the train window between Munich and Saltzberg; 6553
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from the train window between Munich and Saltzberg; 6629
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from the train window between Munich and Saltzberg; 6722
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dpolicar: (Default)
[personal profile] dpolicar
(A comment from another discussion)

I acknowledge, of course, that we are all imperfect humans, and what an individual officer does in a specfic situation is always the result of a million variables that are impossible to predict and often impossible to determine after the fact.

That's why I tend to focus more on training and evaluation protocols than on specific events. It's unjust to expect officers to do X in a sitution if they've been trained to do Y, but it's perfectly reasonable to expect officers to be trained to do X if we prefer that they do X in a situation.

I would prefer that police be trained and evaluated as peacekeepers rather than killers. So I would prefer, for example, they be trained and expected to identify situations that don't require a death, and to act so as to not create a death where none is required.

That said, how police are trained and evaluated is a collective decision, and if we collectively prefer police to choose deaths that aren't required -- for example, if we prefer to train and equip police as military officers who happen to deploy among civilian populations -- then that's how we should train and evaluate them, regardless of my preferences. That's part of the price I pay for living in a collective.

If police _are_ trained to choose unnecessary deaths, we should (individually and collectively) treat calling the police, permitting them into our homes, and otherwise making use of their services as a use of deadly force. Consequently, if we don't individually endorse the use of deadly force in those situations, we should not call the police, any more than we would fire a gun.

Those are individual decisions, not collective ones, and it's perfectly reasonable to hold one another as individuals accountable for them.

I acknowledge that this means that individuals who eschew deadly force in a situation may find themselves in conflict with any police who may arrive. I don't like this, and I don't endorse it, but I acknowledge it.

(no subject)

Sep. 17th, 2017 06:45 am
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[personal profile] bitterlawngnome


the Aspark Owl; 1396
© Bill Pusztai 2017

Well, I'm in Europe. Frankfurt right now. It's all a bit overwhelming, largely due to the jetlag which is really kicking my ass. We have completed shooting the auto show and spent some time yesterday sightseeing.


Frankfurt, pollarded sycamores by the river; 6350
© Bill Pusztai 2017

More later.

Autumn Waters

Sep. 11th, 2017 08:40 pm
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[personal profile] picosgemeos
 


We took a 2-day long helmsman course last week and we are now certified sailors, we can even sail commercial boats. We move into our narrowboat mid-October and plan on living in it for at least a year.

I’ve also given myself that nautical year to finish the first draft of my novel (not coincidentally, set in a boat.) And I plan on submitting one piece of writing for publication each month (can be flash fiction, short story, book review, and so on.)

In October, will you join me in Save Livejournal Month? Autumn is here – let’s all turn inwards.

(no subject)

Sep. 8th, 2017 08:52 pm
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[personal profile] bitterlawngnome
I feel that with Reindeer King Tori Amos is back to speaking a language I can understand. I find it deeply moving and thoughtful and moral in a way I'm not sure I can express yet. It's all about politics but ... not, somehow.

(no subject)

Sep. 8th, 2017 08:35 pm
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[personal profile] bitterlawngnome


Paradise Glacier from Alta Vista trail, Mt Raininer, WA, USA, 2017-08-23; 4136
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Jonathan, Vancouver, 2017-08-30; 4667
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Buck Ramsey, Seattle, 2017-09-05; 5151
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All of the Dahlias; 5340
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All the Dahlias that have bloomed so far this year - 'Midnight Moon' (white with pink blush), 'Alpen Fury' (velvety red with golden center), 'Ivanetti' (darker maroon-purple), 'AC Rosebud' (magenta with yellow throat), 'Ginger Willo' (the little orange pompom), 'Nijinsky' (the flambouyant lavender one)

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